Vilniaus tramvajus

[Sula]

Nesuprantu ką turi omenyje. Rygos tramvajus turi savo kelią, jį (kelia) automobiliai neužima, jam (tramui) automobilių kamščiai netrukdo...

Ne visada, bent jau tarybinės taisyklės nedraudė važiuoti tramvajaus bėgiais:

[Engineer]

/\ dezinformacija.
Pažiūrėk mano video (00:36-01:18), bus aiškiau.

Aaa.. Bet stotelės senoviškai padarytos Va dėl ko visi ant tramvajaus deda.. Idomu kiek pėsčiųjų per metus jie nukala..

[Mørtã]

Ne visada, bent jau tarybinės taisyklės nedraudė važiuoti tramvajaus bėgiais:..

Aš apie Rygos tramvajų... kas kaip kitur važineja - jų reikalas.

[Mørtã]

Aaa.. Bet stotelės senoviškai padarytos Va dėl ko visi ant tramvajaus deda.. Idomu kiek pėsčiųjų per metus jie nukala..

Kas nukala? Tramvajai?
Nematau problemos...

[Engineer]

Kas nukala? Tramvajai?
Nematau problemos...

Na gi privatus automobiliai, kurie turi praleisti į gatvę šokančius pėsčiuosius..

[Mørtã]

Na gi privatus automobiliai, kurie turi praleisti į gatvę šokančius pėsčiuosius..

Na ir kas čia tokio? Prie raudono šviesoforo sustoji ir nieko? Tai čia tas pats "raudonas šviesoforas". Rygoje tramvajus nevažiuoja magistralinem gatvem, automobilių ten nedaug, visi vairuotojai puikiai žino kaip elgtis su tramu, kur, kada ir koki pirmumą jis turi. Todėl tramvajus juda daug greičiau nei automobiliai, kad ir toks archaiškas kaip senas Rygoje, kuris ten važinėja nuo 1901 metų... be pertraukos.

[Engineer]

Na ir kas čia tokio? Prie raudono šviesoforo sustoji ir nieko? Tai čia tas pats "raudonas šviesoforas". Rygoje tramvajus nevažiuoja magistralinem gatvem, automobilių ten nedaug, visi vairuotojai puikiai žino kaip elgtis su tramu, kur, kada ir koki pirmumą jis turi. Todėl tramvajus juda daug greičiau nei automobiliai, kad ir toks archaiškas kaip senas Rygoje, kuris ten važinėja nuo 1901 metų... be pertraukos.

Nežinau, manes tokia sistema neįtikina. Tam, kad įliptum į tramvajų reikia pereiti gatvę. O jeigu šviesoforas sugedęs kaip dažnai Lietuvoje būna? Būtų įdomu statistiką pamatyti kiek per metus įvykstą autoįvykių susijusių su tramvajumi. Plius man atrodo neracionalu stabdyti automobilių srautą. Padaryk stoteles gatvės viduryje į kurias patenka pėstieji ne specialiai aktyvuojant šviesoforo signalą, o tada kai skersiniam srautui užsidega žalias signalas. Aišku Rygos senas tramvajus, visi pripratę, lyg ir nėra būtinybės griauti to kas yra. Bet kas liečia naujas tramvajaus sistemas, tai lyg ir nežinau kad būtų kur diegiama tokiu principu...

[Mørtã]

Vilniuje Kalvarijų g. toks Rygos variantas netinka, nes gatvė magistralinė (1x4, ar 2x2), Vilniuje (ne Senamiestyje) turi buti tramvajus atskirtas nuo automobiliu pilnai, bet Senamiestyje gali buti ir Rygos variantas, nes ten tik dviejų juostų kelias (1x2) beliks.

[Sula]

Manau, kad viskas ir pasibaigs senu geru Rygos tipo variantu. Todėl, kad:
a) pigus ir greitai įvykdomas;
b) labiau įprasta ex-soclagerio žmonėms;
c) mažai reikia keisti infrastruktūrą;
d) didesnis skirtumas ("otkatas") tarp realios vertės ir įsigyjimo/diegimo kainos.

[yessuz]

Sistema realizuota tik tose šalyse kur sniego/ledo nebuna... mums tokia netinka, mums reikia klasikinio tramo... du begiai ir laidas virš galvos.

Sistema realizuota ir tokiose salyse, kur yra ir smarkiai kitu problemu. Pvz Dubajus. ten smelis...

O sita sistema gali tureti ir pasildytuvus.
Tinka mums

[Mørtã]

šildyti neefektyvu, ypač kai galima nešildyti...

[yessuz]

Manau, kad viskas ir pasibaigs senu geru Rygos tipo variantu. Todėl, kad:
a) pigus ir greitai įvykdomas;
b) labiau įprasta ex-soclagerio žmonėms;
c) mažai reikia keisti infrastruktūrą;
d) didesnis skirtumas ("otkatas") tarp realios vertės ir įsigyjimo/diegimo kainos.

tai kad niekas nebedaro tokio tipo sistemu jau
prie ko cia iprasta ex-soclagerio zmonem, jei Vilniuje tramas tarpukariu tik buvo
Infrastruktura keisti reikia bet kokiu atveju:

Pries...


O cia jau po.

Isigijimo kaina yra tiesiog - rinkos kaina.
kadangi nauja sistema, reikia diegti visa sistema is naujo, dep'a daryti, tai pirmines islaidos butu tokios kokios ir snekama - iki 25 mln/km (bet jos dideles bet kokiu atveju), taciau antros linijos km kaina jauciu per pus mazesne butu.

[a_p]

Kad ir kaip keistai skambėtų bet pati neefektyviausia transporto sistema yra "nuo durų iki durų". Matai lietuviai normaliai po vakarus nepavažinėję su efektyvia VT sistema, labai bijo persėdimų. Tačiau visai be reikalo.

Apskritai tai visai ne be reikalo. Nors iš transportininkų pusės tokia sistema su persėdimais ir labai efektyvi, bet keleiviai tyliai keikiasi ir kai tik gali nusiperka mašiną.
Aš šiuo metu kaip tik gyvenu tokiam teoriškai "efektyviam" vakarų mieste kur viskas sukasi apie centrinį HUB'a, t.y. VT eismas suorganizuotas "žvaigždės" principu. Ir galiu pasakyt - realima gyvenime persėdimai yra žiaurus laiko gaišimas.

[felar]

tai kad niekas nebedaro tokio tipo sistemu jau
prie ko cia iprasta ex-soclagerio zmonem, jei Vilniuje tramas tarpukariu tik buvo
Infrastruktura keisti reikia bet kokiu atveju:
Atvaizdas

Pries...

Atvaizdas

O cia jau po.

Isigijimo kaina yra tiesiog - rinkos kaina.
kadangi nauja sistema, reikia diegti visa sistema is naujo, dep'a daryti, tai pirmines islaidos butu tokios kokios ir snekama - iki 25 mln/km (bet jos dideles bet kokiu atveju), taciau antros linijos km kaina jauciu per pus mazesne butu.

Pafotoshopinau Radau tik raudonųjų žibintų kvartalo fotkę.

[Vilnietizz]

Apskritai tai visai ne be reikalo. Nors iš transportininkų pusės tokia sistema su persėdimais ir labai efektyvi, bet keleiviai tyliai keikiasi ir kai tik gali nusiperka mašiną.
Aš šiuo metu kaip tik gyvenu tokiam teoriškai "efektyviam" vakarų mieste kur viskas sukasi apie centrinį HUB'a, t.y. VT eismas suorganizuotas "žvaigždės" principu. Ir galiu pasakyt - realima gyvenime persėdimai yra žiaurus laiko gaišimas.

Jeigu maršrutai yra suderinti tarpusavy, persėdimas ilgai neužtrunka, laukti tenka ne daugiau kaip 5 min. Kita vertus, šaltyje ir tas 5 minutes laukti nelabai malonu, todėl visuose didesniuose HUB'uose turi būti įrengti dideli dengti paviljonai, o ne tokie mažyčiai, kokie yra dabar. Bet iš esmės persėdimas yra visiškai normalus dalykas, sistema "nuo durų iki durų" gali pasiteisinti tik mažesniuose miestuose.

[a_p]

Jeigu maršrutai yra suderinti tarpusavy, persėdimas ilgai neužtrunka, laukti tenka ne daugiau kaip 5 min.

Tame ir visa bėda, kad praktikoje taip paprastai nesigauna. To neleidžia daryti elementarūs ekonominiai paskaičiavimai.

Kita vertus, šaltyje ir tas 5 minutes laukti nelabai malonu, todėl visuose didesniuose HUB'uose turi būti įrengti dideli dengti paviljonai, o ne tokie mažyčiai, kokie yra dabar. Bet iš esmės persėdimas yra visiškai normalus dalykas, sistema "nuo durų iki durų" gali pasiteisinti tik mažesniuose miestuose.

Taip, normalus, nes didesniuose miestuose (Vilnius nėra didelis) tiesiog nėra iš ko rinktis. Jis pernelyg mažas kad užtikrinti pakankamą VT srautą (idant sutrumpinti persėdimo laiką) tuo pat metu nevarinėjant tuščių autobusų.

Tai ne koks Londonas kur iš vienos pusės smaugia gigantiški kamščiai ir iš kitos pusės pakankami žmonių kiekiai kad didesnę dienos dalį apsimokėtų dažnai varinėt autobusus.

[lietus]

Nesuprantu ką turi omenyje. Rygos tramvajus turi savo kelią, jį (kelia) automobiliai neužima, jam (tramui) automobilių kamščiai netrukdo...

Pagal Latvijos kelių eismo taisyklęs sankryžose į kairę sukama nuo tramvajaus bėgių, jeigu jie gatvės viduryje.

[yessuz]

šildyti neefektyvu, ypač kai galima nešildyti...

na, zinai, iki absurdu galima prisigalvoti - vaziuoti neefektyvu, kai galima nevaziuoti...
Jei sistema pati automatiskai deice'inasi.. tai kodel gi ne?

Man tai idomiau, kaip translohr'as issprestu savo problemas:

TRANSLOHR sold his technology TRAM ON TYRES (with 1 rail in the middle) to the following cities. Several accidents of derailments and fires occurred in each city.
1. Clermont –Ferrand
2. Strasbourg
3. Padou in Italy
4. L’Aquila in Italy
5. Mestre –Venise
6. Tjanjin
7. Shanghai
8. Sarcelles-ST. Denis

Please have a look on some of examples.

Derailments.
According to official Translohr publicity "There is no possibility of derailment, even under very poor conditions of adhesion." However, there have been some teething issues, and trials these included a few derailments! Because of this some pundits rather unkindly suggested that the Translohr system is about as un-derailable as the many claims that the Titanic would be unsinkable.
There might be some significance in that whilst the GLT / TVR in Nancy and Caen now exerts a downward pressure of 75 KG on the guide rail the Translohr trams only exert 10% of this.
But the reality is different.
In Clermont-Ferrand the derailment which occurred on 2nd October 2006 (during pre-opening trials / staff training) was found to have been caused by debris left on the track after a car accident. As a result of this incident the safety official decided not to allow the Translohr to start full commercial service a fortnight later, as originally planned. Instead there was a delay whilst detailed investigations on the incident could be completed. However although passenger services were prohibited test runs were allowed, although initially these excluded the section of track past the site of the derailment.
Padua in Italy has suffered a string of minor derailments. The first of these was on the 2nd October 2006 and involved a Translohr tram leaving the (temporary) depôt. Following this Padua's Translohr trams were modified with "the mounting of a new device on every vehicle which removes dirt from the rail, and, if it detects an obstacle, it brakes with the emergency brake.".
On 5th May 2007 Padua (PADOVA) in Italy experienced a more serious derailment where there was both an injury and damage. The incident itself saw the last wheel unit derailing with the rear section of a tram sideswiping a traffic signal, which was actually fortunate because it protected many pedestrians from harm. Unfortunately however a number of glass windows were damaged and one pedestrian was temporarily hospitalised as a result of his injuries.


RE: Translohr “tram” or the rubber-tyred "tram"

It really does not matter if you like or don’t like a “rubber tram”, when the “guide rail” is not done properly as this picture can tell. Apparently, according to some forums, the rails are not fixed to the ground (in Padova). They have a coat of rubber and they are pressed into the channel. I have difficulties to understand that.


Medo
Apparently this derailment was blamed upon issues with the road surface. It seems that a stone sett worked loose and made its way into the vehicle's articulation, and although it was not blocking the guidance rail the unfortunate chance of the tram passing over a point in the trackage somehow resulted in a partial derailment. Although the automated obstacle detection system was activated it seems that it was not possible to prevent the incident. Some reports suggest that there is at least an element of culpability on the part of the tram driver, with suggestions that he / she ignored a warning signal. Other reports suggest that this could be because the warning system often activated without valid reasons.
It should be noted that at the time these notes were written (15th May 2007) the information on this accident was based on unofficial reports, so may need revision at a later date.
Another derailment occurred on 11th July 2007. No-one was hurt but the service was interrupted for a while, with different sources suggesting 90 minutes - a couple of hours. It is possible that somehow the malfunctioning of a point was to blame for this incident.
There was yet another derailment on the 31st October 2007, with a tram derailing at a junction in the track and the point / switch / turnout not being set properly for the correct route. It seems that the cause of the problem might have something to do with a radio controlled junction actuation system which is being blocked or otherwise suffering from some kind of interference, as apparently there have previously been problems at this specific location. The delays from this incident were relatively small - approximately half an hour. Apparently the same day also saw a delegation from Shanghai, China, visiting to look at the Translohr system with a view to using it in their home city.
Tianjin had its first derailment on 20th August 2007 with two wheel units becoming derailed and the vehicle swinging out to completely block a three lane roadway.


Derailment in Tianjin (China) in 2007

Padua's Translohr tramway includes a city centre unwired section where the trams are powered by batteries.
Padua Translohr tramcar number 14 being towed by the emergency vehicle after the derailment of 29th October 2007.

Switching tracks at the stop outside the railway station.
Note how the articulation covers open up when negotiating curved track. Two pass near the Eremintani stop, with there being a very healthy crowd waiting on the platform.

A view of the crossover seen being used above showing a Translohr point (turnout / switch in American). In contrast to the GLT/TVR and ordinary trams, the Translohr requires special equipment which maintains continuous guidance where rail routes intersect.

The articulation covers open out when turning sharper curves - this view shows the outside of the curve. This view of a Translohr tram negotiating a busy junction close to the main railway station also shows the inside of the curve.

These images come from near the Eremintani stop where the line runs alongside the edge of the road / close to a footpath and show provision for an uninstalled crossover. Whether this is uninstalled because of changes to the original plans (perhaps as a cost cutting exercise) or that it is intended to install this at a later date but provision was made during the construction phase (as a cost saving exercise) is unknown.

Left: It is to be presumed that the indentation in the footpath is required for the vehicle's wheels to expand over the swept path followed by vehicles travelling straight.

Right: This better shows the uninstalled crossover... as well as an access cover on the section of road surface used by the vehicle's wheels and (next to it) what looks like a break (ie: damage) to the road surface - both of which will result in a lessening of the vehicle's ride quality.

The side of the drivers' cab, showing the CCTV camera to help for him / her with door closing (a feature which is often found on trams), and the notice on the vehicle's passenger doors.
French Success.
On the 27th of August the opening of the last of section Clermont-Ferrand's first line saw it finally reaching its planned ultimate first stage length. Even though the system has been in operation for less than a year extensions are being proposed. The first of these will be a modest 1.7km in length, although more are being planned.
Passenger-wise the system is proving to be very successful, with the original anticipated daily ridership of 35,000 passengers per day being proven to have been a significant under-estimate. Instead by August 2007 it was carrying 42,000 passengers per day - and as a consequence of this higher ridership plus the planned extension another six (6) Translohr trams were ordered from Lohr Industries for delivery in June 2008. On a less happy note one of Clermont-Ferrand's vehicles was wrecked in a fire on Boxing Day 2009, with the cause being attributed to the brakes on one axle seizing.



More locations - in France and Asia.
Two Translohr systems have been proposed for the Paris / Île-de-France area, linking Saint-Denis with Garges-Sarcelles and Châtillon with Viroflay. The former will feature 16 stops and be 6.6km in length. To be known as Line T5 it will use 15 Translohr STE3 format trams and is scheduled to open in 2011 (although some sources say 2012). The latter will follow a radial route 14km in length (including a 1.6km underground section) through the city's southern suburbs. There will be 21 stops, including two underground. It will use a fleet of 28 Translohr trams which will be of the longest STE6 format - making this the first fleet of such vehicles. To be known as Line T6 services were initally expected to start in 2010, which then slipped to two stages in 2011 and 2012, and now to 2014.
In October 2008 construction began of a 9km Translohr Tramway in Zhangjiang, which is to the south-east of Shanghai, China. The inital plans were for 12 STE3 Translohr vehicles serving a route which extends from Zhangjiang High-tech Park Station of Metro Line 2 to Jinqiu Road, on a route which serves 15 stations and crosses seven river channels - requiring the building of one bridge and renovation of 10 further bridges. According to Xu Daofang, a chief engineer of tram engineering who works for the Shanghai Transportation Engineering Society, Zhangjiang is a good place to implement the city's first tram line because "it is not as busy as the city centre and construction will not affect many people". The first 9 Translohr trams arrived in February 2009 and the line opened on 31st December 2009. The choice of Translohr tramway technology was influenced by a desire to minimise 'track noises', with the rubber tyres being perceived as being more likely to make meeting this desire possible than than steel wheels. In addition, it was felt that rubber tyres would be better able to cope with the hilly terrain in the local area.
Other locations known to be interested in Translohr ssytems include Medillin, Columbia (South America) where a system using 11 STE3 Translohr trams is hoped to be opening in 2014; Strasbourg in France and Bamako - the capital city of the African nation of Mali.

Translohr tram in Shanghai. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...jiang_Tram.jpg Translohr in Binhai New Area (aka Tanggu), Tianjin
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...in_Tianjin.jpg
More photographs of the Tianjin Translohr can be found on the Gakei.com website at http://gakei.com/tsn/tsnt.htm (Link opens in a new window)
More Italian Happenings.
In 2010 Padua suffered two more derailments. The first occurred on 13th January and although no official statement was made it seems that the tram derailed at a junction / on pointwork. Human error is suspected as the cause. No-one was hurt. The second derailment occurred on 26th April and it seems that a tram travelling at 25km/h approaching a junction and expecting to travel 'straight ahead' encountered a point which was set for turning right, a manouevre which requires a much lower speed of around 5km/h. Sources suggest an electrical issue affecting the point had resulted in it being set in the wrong direction. Again, no-one was hurt. What is also perhaps very relevant here is that had a normal 'duorail' tram encountered a similar situation it too would almost certainly have also derailed, as the centrifugal force would have been too great to permit it to make the turn at the higher speed.
The Padua system is expanding, with there being another five routes (SIR 2 - SIR 6) either proposed or actually under construction. Fleet expansion will include some STE4 trams in addition to the STE3 trams currently being used.
Things do not seem to have gone at all well in L'Aquila in Italy . Reports suggest that with work well underway and some of the Translohr trams having already been purchased the project has been delayed by a combination of route changes, a lack of money, financial irregularities with respect to some of the contracts and that some European Union regulations with respect to the awarding of major construction contracts had not been followed - resulting in a court ordering that work stops for an investigation. The earthquake of 2009 which caused much destruction in the city has also 'not helped' and may yet prove to have been the 'final straw'; in other words it remains to be seen whether the L'Aquila Translohr tramway will be completed - or cancelled.
Construction in Latina only started in late 2009 and it is expected to be 2012 before the system carries its first fare paying passenger.
The first section of the Mestre (Venice) Translohr tram opened on 20th December 2010. When completed there will be two lines operating a 'T' shaped network. Before that however an underpass has to be built to permit trams on Line 1 to get past Mestre railway station and reach trams on Line 2, which is the route that will serve Venice, as well as provide better interchange with local bus services. Further extensions are also planned, including seeing trams reach Marco Polo airport and an underwater link below the lagoon.
According to this web page, April 2009 saw four cyclist accidents in just three days on the Translohr route in Mestre (Venise). The page also references many bicycle and scooter accidents from Padua (when that line was new), and suggests that the issue could be related to wet rails (in rainy weather) being very slippery. However it is also suggested that when wet some footpaths were also slippery...
http://chatillon.ecologiesolidaire.f...-Mestre-Venise (Link opens in a new window).

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tram_mestre7.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...hr_favaro3.JPG
These four images showing the Mestre-Venice Translohr trams are by Luca Fascia

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/
File:Translohr_favaro_veneto4.JPG http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/
File:Translohr_a_mestre_venezia_venice_tram.JPG
Another French Derailment.
At the present time the cause is not known, however in the afternoon of 10th January 2011 a TransLohr tram in Clermont-Ferrand derailed and crashed (sideways) against a concrete wall, with one woman being hurt. This was the system's first derailment since entering full public service.

Additional :
1. TRANSLOH has a monopolistic strategy on the market. What’s happened if TRANSLOHR stop to manufacture this technology ?
2. Tram, with Translohr technology has to be replaced after 12-15 Years of circulation. (traditional after 30 Years)
3. +50-70% more expensive as the traditional tramway.
4. Translohr faces the financial problems.

France: Lohr Industries looks for safeguard funds
Le Figaro - 12 Dec 2011

In difficulty for three years, with turnover down from EUR 200mn (USD 267.40mn) during the first half of 2008 to EUR 120mn for all of 2011, Lohr Industries has stopped production of transport wagons and semi-trailers, while production of trucks and automobile carrying trailers has been divided by ten and employees have been put on partial unemployment. Only tram activity, which represents 50% of turnover in 2011, operates normally. The founder of the company, Robert Lohr, has put the tramway division up for sale is looking for a buyer that will maintain employment in Alsace. If no buyer is found, he should open up capital to a shareholder. By the end of December, he needs to find EUR 50mn to reimburse a loan contracted two years ago. A solution envisaged is to extend the loan for six months.

imho, transloras - viena didele beda...

[Mørtã]

na, zinai, iki absurdu galima prisigalvoti - vaziuoti neefektyvu, kai galima nevaziuoti...
Jei sistema pati automatiskai deice'inasi.. tai kodel gi ne?...

Absurdas yra siulyti sistemą, kuri mūsų sąlygom neefektyvi/nenaudinga/neracionali. Net gi pačiame Bordo trečias begis naudojamas tik tam kur tai tikrai verta.

[yessuz]

Absurdas yra siulyti sistemą, kuri mūsų sąlygom neefektyvi/nenaudinga/neracionali. Net gi pačiame Bordo trečias begis naudojamas tik tam kur tai tikrai verta.

Baurdeaux 3 begis naudojamas ten, kur reikia "nedarkyti landsafto stulpais"...
Dubajuje - visa sistema 100% bus su APS.
ten kaip minejau - smelis.. turbut liudniau nei sniegas, kuris nutirpti gali...