Holocaust in Lithuania

[Mantas]

I agree with vytauc here.

[Svajoklis]

There, of course, are people who hate jews as well as there are people who hate the blacks just because they are different and people are not used to them. It's a human nature. As for Lithuania's blame, Lithuania didn't have an independent government and was ruled by the Germans back then, so a part of that responsibility should go to Germany as well.

Yes, and the other part should go to Lithuanians who willingly collaborated with the Germans, as is testified to in Wikipedia "Both immediately before and after the German occupation in 1941, the Lithuanians themselves carried out violent pogroms against the Jewish population, which were encouraged by the Lithuanian authorities, and according to German documentation, between the 25th and 26nd of June, 1941, "about 1,500 Jews were eliminated by the Lithuanian partisans. Many Jewish synagogues were set on fire; on the following nights another 2,300 were killed." In particular you may find this picture interesting. Following this incident, someone stood on the corpses of the men and played the Lithuanian national anthem...so let's not pretend the Holocaust was an entirely German phenomenon (although, of course, the Germans carry the lion's share of the blame).

Well, even non-orthodox might look strange for people who are not used to them. And Vytautas Šustauskas, LOL, what a good example He's a drunkhead shouting idiot, nothing more.

Well most Jews look perfectly normal to me, and many Lithuanians did not recognise my Jewish friends as Jews until I told them. As for Sustauskas, I fully agree - but the fact is that he is (was?) still a member of Parliament, and as such he frequently figured in the British press for his anti-semitic comments.

It really depends if the jews themselves want it and stop insulting the Lithuanian nation. Lithuania is not negating anything, but there are limits as well.

As I have said before, I think very few Jews are actively insulting Lithuania. The majority just want your prejudice to stop.

[Sula]

Atsiprasau as nebruku, jus paklausete as atsakiau ir viskas

Na tai kam klaidinti žmones, gal būt nežinančius visų detelių. O dėl Tomkaus straipsnių ir tebevešinčios, mitais pagrįstos, ksenofobijos - jūs teisus.
Kita vertus, čia Svajoklis rašinėja, kad tai Lietuvai ypač būdingas fenomenas, su kuo sutikti niekaip negalima. Vakaruose tas liberalus "fasadas" yra dažnai apgaulingas.

[Svajoklis]

As I said in Lithuanian before- I have absolutely no reason to feel guilty for anything that nor me, nor my ancestors did. I feel greatly sorry for all the innocent people who were exterminated those days and I never would justify anything like that. But puting labels for my entire nation would only make me angry. Point and punish the guilty ones, leave the rest alone.

I agree as well, which is why my original post (about the desecration of Jewish graves) was about anti-semitism in Lithuania today, and I only brought up the Holocaust as a reason why this anti-semitism is all the more shocking given what has happened in the recent past in Lithuania.

It's up to you whether or not you want to feel guilty - I fell guilty that my country did not do more to stop the Holocaust, and we were not even involved in any violence against the Jews! However, I can understand that you are not personally responsible, so there is no need for you to feel guilty. But if you are to feel proud of the achievements of Lithuania in the past (which were inevitably only ever due to the actions of a minority), then by the same logic you should feel shame for the more ignominious achievements of your forebears - but shame categorically does not equate to guilt!

[DeSadas]

As I said in Lithuanian before- I have absolutely no reason to feel guilty for anything that nor me, nor my ancestors did. I feel greatly sorry for all the innocent people who were exterminated those days and I never would justify anything like that. But puting labels for my entire nation would only make me angry. Point and punish the guilty ones, leave the rest alone.

Sorry, but with all due respect, none is putting lables on Lithuania, but Lithuanians themselves are. With all the public pools constantly showing a big degree of antisemitism in the society. And the fierce stance from your side isn't the best turning point for the reconciliation, just that.

[DeSadas]

Na tai kam klaidinti žmones, gal būt nežinančius visų detelių. O dėl Tomkaus straipsnių ir tebevešinčios, mitais pagrįstos, ksenofobijos - jūs teisus.

Velgi pasikartosiu, jus paklausete as atsakiau. Apie restitucija nusimanau tiek kiek ir eilinis pilietis pasiskaites kelias geras "Veido" apzvalgas

Kita vertus, čia Svajoklis rašinėja, kad tai Lietuvai ypač būdingas fenomenas, su kuo sutikti niekaip negalima. Vakaruose tas liberalus "fasadas" yra dažnai apgaulingas.

Na vakaruose bent fasadas yra ir politikai is kart uzkerta kelia bet kokiom ksenofobijos apraiskom, pasmerkdami si procesa, o siuo atzvilgiu Lietuvoje viskas vyksta kaip ir sava eiga.
Kad ir pats nesenas faktas apie rasistinius ispuolius pries lietuvius, langu dauzymas ir istepliojimas dazais siaures Airijoje. Vietine valdzia is kart atkreipe demesi ir pasmerke si fakta ir atvykes Bleiras aptars susidariusia situacija su vietine valdzia.
Tai taip yra formuojamas viesas nepakantumas ksenofobijai ir uzkertamas kelias kai kuriems tolimesniems ivykiams. O Lietuvoje tyli visi kaip struciai sukise galvas i smeli, matai tai nera politiskai paranku ir nekorektiska isskirti kazkokias socialines, kulturines ar tautines grupes.
Galima butu vardinti ir nesenus cigonu namu griovimo atvejus (ale isvalysim tabora nuo visokiu siuksliu ir narkomanu), tai tiesiog tipinis zmogaus teisiu pazeidimas. Daug naudingiau butu pinigai isleisti i visuomenine ju integracija.

[Ežiukas]

...
Vytautas Sustauskas, my personal experience and a poll which I read in the Baltic Times which stated that something like two thirds of Lithuanians "would not like a Jew as their neighbour" all seem to suggest otherwise.
...

Sustauskas is an clown not the man which you should listen to :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8jtf...rch=sustauskas

[Svajoklis]

Sustauskas is an clown not the man which you should listen to :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8jtf...rch=sustauskas

Yes I know! But surely someone must have elected him?

[Mantas]

Yes, and the other part should go to Lithuanians who willingly collaborated with the Germans, as is testified to in Wikipedia "Both immediately before and after the German occupation in 1941, the Lithuanians themselves carried out violent pogroms against the Jewish population, which were encouraged by the Lithuanian authorities, and according to German documentation, between the 25th and 26nd of June, 1941, "about 1,500 Jews were eliminated by the Lithuanian partisans. Many Jewish synagogues were set on fire; on the following nights another 2,300 were killed." In particular you may find this picture interesting. Following this incident, someone stood on the corpses of the men and played the Lithuanian national anthem...so let's not pretend the Holocaust was an entirely German phenomenon (although, of course, the Germans carry the lion's share of the blame).

Haven't heard of any pogroms encouraged by Lithuanian elected government. As for the picture, those people were probably nazi allies, but that doesn't mean that it shows the mood of the entire Lithuanian population that time.

Well most Jews look perfectly normal to me, and many Lithuanians did not recognise my Jewish friends as Jews until I told them. As for Sustauskas, I fully agree - but the fact is that he is (was?) still a member of Parliament, and as such he frequently figured in the British press for his anti-semitic comments.

So how could those gigglers know that they are jews?? I think your friends are just a bit paranoid.

As I have said before, I think very few Jews are actively insulting Lithuania. The majority just want your prejudice to stop.

Hopely.

[DeSadas]

So how could those gigglers know that they are jews?? I think your friends are just a bit paranoid.

They didn't, thats the whole point

[Sula]

I agree with vytauc here.

I think that is extreme taunt to demand satisfaction from the people who helped Jewish neighbours to survive, from the people who took position of active or even passive resistance to Nazi occupation (most of Jews didn't), from relatives of those people.
For example, a boy of 14th, cousine of my mother, was shot by soldier just for that he tried to keep beloved Jewish girl from despatching to the killing place.

[Ežiukas]

By the way it is a shame that you can't watch lithuanian tv Svajokli , because just a week ago there was a broadcast titled "XX amžiaus slaptieji archyvai" just about those jews killings in kaunas if you really wanna be impartial you should listin to lithuanian historians opinion about it too , not just what is on wikipedia

http://www.lnk.lt/filmai/?id=2637

[DeSadas]

By the way it is a shame that you can't watch lithuanian tv Svajokli , because just a week ago there was a broadcast titled "XX amžiaus slaptieji archyvai" just about those jews killings in kaunas if you really wanna be impartial you should listin to lithuanian historians opinion about it too , not just what is on wikipedia

http://www.lnk.lt/filmai/?id=2637

Sorry, I don't believe in Lithuanian science and the credibility of the stories they tell anymore. But different opinions are always welcomed

[vytauc]

But if you are to feel proud of the achievements of Lithuania in the past (which were inevitably only ever due to the actions of a minority), then by the same logic you should feel shame for the more ignominious achievements of your forebears - but shame categorically does not equate to guilt!

Nice logic. One "but". There was no Lithuania as a state from 1940 to 1990. I feel ashamed for the massacres that Lithuanian armies commited in Pskov in middle ages. So as I'm proud of their victories over crusaders. But there was no Lithuanian State behind those who started to kill Jews back in 1941. I blame them, I would never justify them and I wish them all to be punished if any of them still aren't. I regret that Lithuanians participated in Holocaust so as I regret when a Lithuanian commits a bad crime anywhere. But I don't feel guilty or ashamed for them because first they're criminals, and only after they are Lithuanians. Do you cover your head with ashes for every British murderor?

[DeSadas]

. But I don't feel guilty or ashamed for them because first they're criminals, and only after they are Lithuanians. Do you cover your head with ashes for every British murderor?

Nice logic, but also one "but", they were criminals but also they participated in genocide, with the sole purpose to exterminate ant to take the wealth and other belongings.
It was based not on personal grounds like "briton murderer case of yours" , but solely on the basis of the race, sexuality and nationality.

You will need a lot of heads to cover up in ashes, that were blowing out of oswencima.

[Mantas]

They didn't, thats the whole point

How do you know?

[Ežiukas]

...
It was based not on personal grounds like "briton murderer case of yours" , but solely on the basis of the race, sexuality and nationality.
..

What is the source of this statement of yours . Do you participate in a killing , do you personally know any of the jews killer , or you just read it on wikipedia too ?

[DeSadas]

How do you know?

I understood in that way, I think we just need to ask Svajoklis for the immediate explanation of this case.

[DeSadas]

What is the source of this statement of yours . Do you participate in a killing , do you personally know any of the jews killer , or you just read it on wikipedia too ?

Sorry, but it is common knowlege pal. It is written in every normal history book.

[Ežiukas]

Sorry, but it is common knowlege pal. It is written in every normal history book.

May I ask on which ones ?

You can not replay if you don't know because i'm just curiuos